Dialectical Behavior Therapy Chat Conference Transcript with Michael Staub M.S.  : 11/1/02

We were very pleased to have Michael Staub M.S. provide a chat conference about the Dialectical Behavior Therapy - specifically Mindfulness here at the Borderline Personality Disorder Today.  Below are the transcripts. 

[21:25] <@emmespalace> I would like to introduce Michael A. Staub, Mr. Staub is a graduate of Northwestern State University and has a Masters of Science in clinical psychology [21:26] <@emmespalace> at this time Mike will begin with a lecture on dbt and mindfulness, Mike the floor is all yours
[21:27] <@Mike> *clears throat*
[21:27] <@Mike> you've all come here this evening to hear some words on the skill called mindfulness
[21:28] <@Mike> this is the first of 4 'core skills' presented by dr Marsha lineman in her therapy paradigm called Dialectical Behavior Therapy
[21:28] <@Mike> the 4 core skills are mindfulness, interpersonal effectiveness, emotional regulation and distress tolerance
[21:29] <@Mike> we begin at the beginning and mindfulness holds skills that shall be used throughout the rest of the skills training as well
[21:29] <@Mike> these mindfulness are skills that we want to be using and practicing all the time. Some other skills are NOT that way, but we will get to them at a later date
[21:30] <@Mike> first, let me open up with a discussion of what mindfulness IS
[21:30] <@Mike> what ideas do you have about mindfulness?
[21:30] <@Mike> what is it to you?
[21:30] <@Mike> or perhaps I should say, what does it mean when you hear it?
[21:31] <@Mike> anyone
[21:31] <@Emmespalace> it is ok at this point if people want to respond to mikes questions
[21:31] <@Mike> help me out here
[21:31] <Margie> mindfulness is being in the here and now
[21:31] <Cortex> balancing emotions with logic
[21:31] <@Mike> good
[21:31] <@Mike> good
[21:31] <@Mike> anyone else?
[21:31] <Mega> being aware of what's going on around yourself
[21:32] <@Mike> excellent
[21:32] <Gourou> I think it is being aware of what we feel, being able to distinguish it from other feeling, to name it...
[21:32] <@Mike> any more?
[21:32] <Cortex> being aware of the 'big picture"?
[21:32] <@Coloredbrush> being focused on what you're doing at the moment instead of everything else you may be thinking or feeling
[21:32] <@Mike> good answers
[21:32] <@Mike> all of these incorporate various aspects of mindfulness
[21:32] <@Mike> for myself, I like to think of mindfulness as 2 words, or concepts
[21:33] <@Mike> I keep it simple, because I'm a simple guy
[21:33] <@Mike> I like to think of it as awareness and balance
[21:33] <@Mike> both of which were mentioned
[21:33] <@Mike> these are the core concepts of what mindfulness is all about, to me
[21:33] <@Mike> so lets start with some awareness
[21:34] <@Mike> one of the concepts I like to begin with is the idea of beliefs
[21:34] <@Mike> beliefs are ideas we hold dear 
[21:34] <@Mike> things that we honestly and truly believe are reality, whether they are or are not
[21:35] <@Mike> so one way to begin to cultivate awareness is to examine our own belief systems
[21:35] <@Mike> when I do this, we talk about 9 basic 'irrational beliefs'
[21:35] <@Mike> these are ways of thinking that are either unhealthy or in some way hold us back from reaching our potential
[21:36] <@Mike> think of these as 'thinking errors', if you will
[21:36] <@Mike> the first is binocular vision
[21:36] <@Mike> binoculars magnify things and make them look bigger/closer than they really are
[21:37] <Gourou> ?
[21:37] <@Mike> the question here is, do I do that with my problems? Do I focus on the problems and then make them large?
[21:37] <@Mike> also there is a flip side
[21:37] <@Mike> when we turn binoculars around and look thru them, things become very small and distant
[21:38] <@Mike> so the question here is, do I do that with the good things in my life or about me? Do I minimize those things or blow then off?
[21:38] <@Mike> everyone still with me, or are there any questions so far?
[21:38] <Gourou> ??? <-- Question
[21:38] <@Mike> don't be shy if you want something explained or clarified
[21:38] <@Mike> shoot
[21:39] <Gourou> okay :) is there somewhere in our book when we can see these 9 irrational beliefs summarized?
[21:39] <@Mike> no. Unfortunately, this is something I have taken from another source, but I find is an excellent intro mindfulness
[21:40] <Gourou> ok, too bad.
[21:40] <@Mike> it helps people to begin to see what kind of thinking errors they are using on a consistent basis and then fight against them
[21:40] <@Mike> the second one is black and white thinking
[21:41] <@Mike> this one is explained by linehan a number of times
[21:41] <@Mike> it is the idea of all or nothing, wrong or right, good or bad
[21:41] <@Mike> notice all the 'or' s 
[21:41] <@Mike> life would be much easier if we could identify things in simple terms
[21:41] <@Mike> she is my friend or she isn't
[21:42] <@Mike> you are lying to me or you're not
[21:42] <@Mike> you feel a certain way or you don't
[21:42] <@Mike> unfortunately, life if rarely, if ever, that simple
[21:42] <@Mike> life is not a series of black and white events, but rather a number of shades of gray
[21:43] <@Mike> getting over the idea that things are either good or bad will help to be able to withstand and eventually conquer much of the psychological turmoil you may be experiencing now
[21:44] <@Mike> as a therapist, I often see this expressed by clients toward myself
[21:44] <@Mike> I am either the angel or the devil
[21:44] <@Mike> and as the angel, I will invariably make a 'mistake' at some time
[21:45] <@Mike> getting that client to see that I am simply a human being, with both good as well as BAD qualities, is very important
[21:45] <@Mike> the next error is called dark glasses
[21:45] <@Mike> do I see the world as a fundamentally 'bad' place, as out to get me
[21:45] <@Mike> do I notice all of the bad things, and sometimes even insist that NO good things happen at all?
[21:45] <@Mike> this is seeing the world thru dark glasses.
[21:46] <@Mike> can anyone think of a thinking error that is the opposite of dark glasses?
[21:46] <@Mike> *waits for responses*
[21:46] <@Mike> *grins*
[21:46] <Mega> rose colored glasses
[21:47] <@Mike> THERE we go
[21:47] <@Mike> very good
[21:47] <@Emmespalace> everyone is great their best friend
[21:47] <Rilya_Miril-Lirin> thinking nothing bad could ever happen, that they are invincible
[21:47] <@Mike> with rose-colored glasses, we see only the GOOD things, neglecting the bad
[21:47] <@Mike> exactly
[21:47] <@Mike> this thinking error can be as bad as dark glasses, because we open ourselves up to great pain when we trust others blindly
[21:48] <@Mike> fortune telling is the fourth
[21:48] <Mega> wouldn't that be a sort of B&W thinking?
[21:48] <@Mike> a number of these are similar and may bleed into each other
[21:48] <@Mike> good question, though, mega
[21:49] <@Mike> you will also notice that I may be using several of these thought errors at the same time
[21:49] <@Mike> fortune telling is about making predictions
[21:49] <@Mike> do I already know how my husband is going to respond to something before I even ask?
[21:49] <Margie> self fulfilling
[21:49] <@Mike> if so, that is fortune telling
[21:49] <@Mike> yes
[21:49] <@Mike> very much so
[21:50] <@Mike> and if I already know he is going to say 'no', then I'm likely not even going to bother asking
[21:50] <@Mike> if I don't bother asking, there is no chance at all I can get what I want
[21:50] <Margie> the reverse, he should know what you want
[21:50] <@Mike> the chance may be small if I DO ask, but there is no chance at all if I don't
[21:51] <@Mike> yes. another thinking error, tho not on this list, is the idea of mind reading
[21:51] <@Mike> do i know what someone else is thinking
[21:51] <@Mike> as in "you don't love me"
[21:51] <@Mike> and the corollary of that - you should KNOW what I need
[21:51] <@Mike> we will get to some of this in the next skill, interpersonal effectiveness (aka - how to get what I need)
[21:51] <Gourou> mike stop me if I should place this comment later but... I'd answer to that forth error that I believe in statistics...
[21:52] <@Mike> you bring up a good point
[21:52] <Gourou> I mean if something happens often, I tend to "know" it will re-happen
[21:52] <@Mike> one I was going to leave out for brevity, but I like this kind of discussion
[21:52] <Gourou> and there comes the B&W :)
[21:52] <@Mike> the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior
[21:53] <@Mike> this is very true
[21:53] <@Mike> BUT
[21:53] <@Mike> that is a PREDICTOR
[21:53] <@Mike> if the way to tell what future behavior is GOING TO BE is from past behavior, and then we would all be psychics
[21:53] <@Mike> there would be NO way to change our behavior in the future
[21:54] <@Mike> while I am a fairly strict behaviorist, I still hold that people have the ability to script their own lives and choices
[21:54] <@Mike> and because of that, even if my husband has told me NO 137 times, there is no guarantee that he will say no the 138th
[21:54] <@Mike> knowing that he will is fortune telling
[21:55] <@Mike> and using the statistics is called the gamblers' fallacy :-)
[21:55] <@Mike> on to #5
[21:55] <@Mike> this is called making it personal
[21:55] <@Mike> this one is 2 fold
[21:55] <Gourou> it makes me think of a laboratory rat learning not to touch something because it is electrified...
[21:55] <Gourou> oops sorry
[21:56] <@Mike> the first question is do I usually believe that others are talking about me/looking at me/ etc?
[21:56] <@Mike> do I personalize what is going on around me?
[21:56] <@Mike> AA has a saying for this one (that I really don't like)
[21:56] <@Mike> but ill mention it here anyway
[21:57] <@Mike> why do you think YOURE so important?
[21:57] <Gourou> lol..
[21:57] <@Mike> it is a good question to ask to counter that thought error, but in some ways belittle you as an individual, so I don't like it a lot for that reason
[21:57] <@Mike> the second part to personalizing is this question
[21:58] <@Mike> do I take on responsibility or actions that ARE NOT MY OWN?
[21:58] <@Mike> you do not have control over anyone else
[21:58] <@Mike> even children
[21:58] <@Mike> you Do have to own your own actions, but if you own others', you are likely enabling or allowing them to do things for some reason
[21:59] <@Mike> (usually that's guilt, by the way)
[21:59] <@Mike> number 6 on the hit parade is over generalizing
[21:59] <@Mike> do I make conclusions based on limited exposure?
[22:00] <@Mike> this is similar to black and white, again
[22:00] <@Mike> any time you hear "all" or "none", this is often over generalizing
[22:00] <@Mike> you never help me around the house
[22:01] <@Mike> is it likely that never once, in our entire experience together, that I have not helped, even once?
[22:01] <@Mike> it COULD be true, but is much more likely to be an overgeneralization
[22:01] <@Mike> and if you're seeing these kind of statements in yourself, it is also likely you do this a fair amount of the time
[22:02] <@Mike> these types of statements can put others on the defensive VERY quickly, and an argument ensues
[22:02] <@Mike> labeling is number 7
[22:02] <@Mike> do I put overly simple, derogatory labels on people or things that are much more complex than the person/thing really is?
[22:03] <@Mike> my ex wife is just a BITCH
[22:03] <@Mike> a simple label
[22:03] <@Mike> I do not like my ex wife's behaviors
[22:03] <@Mike> at times, she may even ACT like a bitch
[22:03] <@Mike> or even act bitchy
[22:04] <@Mike> but labeling can get us into trouble because we reduce that person down to something simple and less than human
[22:04] <@Mike> these two work great in combination.
[22:04] <@Mike> lets see who can finish this sentence first. Ready?
[22:04] <@Mike> all men are ______
[22:04] <Gourou> masculine
[22:04] <@Mike> LOL
[22:04] <@Mike> cute
[22:04] <@Mike> anyone else?
[22:04] <Gourou> ;)
[22:05] <Rilya_Miril-Lirin> pigs
[22:05] <@Mike> good one
[22:05] <@Mike> all men are pigs
[22:05] <@Mike> good combination of both labeling as well as over generalizing
[22:06] <@Mike> a more appropriate statement might be, in my experience, the men I have dealt with have not treated me well
[22:06] <@Mike> or perhaps have cheated on me
[22:06] <Rilya_Miril-Lirin> one or two have hurt me in the past so therefore all men suck?
[22:07] <@Mike> you are being specific with what behavior they exhibited that you didn't like, as well as acknowledging that while all the men you have dealt with have been like this, the possibility exists that some men are NOT this way [22:07] <@Mike> a great thinking error there, rilya
[22:07] <Mega> too many words, when you don't talk much
[22:07] <@Mike> number 8 is similar to binocular vision
[22:08] <@Mike> it's called, discounting the positive
[22:08] <@Mike> do you ignore or blow off good things?
[22:08] <@Mike> can anyone here twist a good situation until it becomes bad- i.e. talk themselves out of having a good time?
[22:08] <@Mike> or my personal fav
[22:08] <@Mike> can you accept a compliment?
[22:09] <@Mike> your hair looks very nice tonight
[22:09] <@Mike> wtf?? Are you saying that my hair usually looks like crap?? you bastard!!!!
[22:09] <@Mike> the last thinking error is called beating up on myself or others
[22:09] <@Coloredbrush> I can outwardly accept the compliment because it is the polite thing to do, but in my head I do all of that that you just said
[22:09] <@Mike> 2 words to keep in mind (or be mindful of) here
[22:10] <@Mike> "should" and "must"
[22:10] <@Mike> do I insist that things have to be a certain way?
[22:10] <@Mike> this is what 'allows' us to beat up on either ourselves or on others
[22:10] <@Mike> it justifies it
[22:11] <@Mike> if my son didn't do the laundry the way I told him to, then he deserved the sever verbal beating I gave him. He should have listened and did it right
[22:11] <@Mike> the same works for us. I should have done better on the test. Because I failed, it is necessary for me to hurt myself as a punishment
[22:12] <@Mike> I have even had some clients justify beating themselves up for recognizing that they often engage in the thinking error of beating themselves up!
[22:13] <@Mike> so I'm going to open the floor for a little discussion before I go on in just a sec
[22:13] <@Mike> I have spent a long time discussing thinking errors, 
[22:13] <Margie> is all of this "cognitive distortions:? or do I digress?
[22:13] <@Mike> something that isn't even in your book under mindfulness
[22:14] <@Mike> have I lost my mind or does this have something to do with the topic at hand?
[22:14] <@Mike> yes Margie
[22:14] <@Mike> some are cognitive distortions
[22:14] <@Mike> others are outright illogical thought patterns that we have 'learned' to make part of our reality
[22:15] <@Mike> the bad news is, it's very difficult to break out of these because they are like bad habits
[22:15] <@Emmespalace> ok everyone that has a question for mike please type a? and I will call on you in the order you type in your ?
[22:15] <@Mike> the GOOD news is that anything you can learn (and these ARE learned) can be UNlearned
[22:15] <@Mike> lets take a few questions then move on
[22:15] * Quits: Rilya_Miril-Lirin ([email protected] ) (Ping timeout )
[22:15] <Gourou> ?
[22:16] <@Emmespalace> gourou your question please
[22:16] <@Mike> *long question* :-)
[22:16] <Gourou> thank you. I wrote all of the nine errors and I'm looking at them... unfortunately, I feel that I don't believe in some of them because of statistics... 
[22:17] <@Mike> okies. Give us an example
[22:17] <Gourou> hmm
[22:17] <@Coloredbrush> ?
[22:17] <@Mike> remember that this all comes back to beliefs. 
[22:17] <@Mike> the reason you may not believe it is because of the thinking errors. 
[22:18] <@Mike> those beliefs are PART of us. A big part of what we BELIEVE to be reality
[22:18] <@Mike> often, they are not easily discarded or changed
[22:18] <@Mike> should we wait for you, gourou, or did that answer your concerns?
[22:19] <Gourou> sorry mike my ideas aren't clear, I'm thinking about it... go on and I'll catch up the next question time :)
[22:19] <@Mike> that's cool
[22:19] <@Emmespalace> coloredbrush your question please
[22:19] <@Coloredbrush> can I comment on what gourou has mentioned, I wanted to comment on it before but thought I would wait
[22:19] <@Mike> go ahead
[22:19] <Mega> ?
[22:20] <@Mike> I think coloredbrush has something to say, then we'll get your question, mega
[22:20] <@Coloredbrush> Would it be safe to say, that statistics of something being "bad" and not taking action because it "always" turns out that way, is based on our behavior that causes the result, and that if we can get our behavior to be more adaptive then the statistics would no longer apply, new statistics will be made
[22:21] <@Mike> well, that is certainly true
[22:21] <@Mike> but I would ALSO like to say that, even if we DON'T change, EVERY interaction is a new and therefore different one
[22:22] <@Mike> believing that they will ALL be the same is over generalizing
[22:22] <@Mike> or perhaps fortune telling
[22:22] <@Mike> or perhaps a little of both ;-)
[22:22] <@Coloredbrush> okay, so you are saying that none of it is exactly the same because even if minute, our behavior, or the circumstance has something different in it that skews the stats
[22:22] <@Mike> you see how these go together
[22:23] <@Mike> exactly. life is not a sheet of statistics
[22:23] <@Coloredbrush> okay, thanks
[22:23] <@Mike> things cannot be boiled down that way
[22:23] * Quits: Margie ([email protected] ) (Quit: Leaving )
[22:23] <@Mike> if it could, it WOULD make things easier
[22:23] <Gourou> ?
[22:23] <@Emmespalace> mega your question please
[22:23] <@Mike> but to my knowledge, no one has figured out how to do it
[22:23] <Mega> what is the difference between these illogical thought patterns and the things that I think/do when psychotic? (Exaggeration I know)
[22:23] <@Mike> BIG exaggeration
[22:23] <@Mike> that's a tough one
[22:24] <Mega> perhaps I don't know the definition of psychotic
[22:24] <@Mike> psychosis is by its very nature impossible to tell the difference between what is real and what is fantasy
[22:24] <@Mike> psychotic means "break from reality'
[22:24] <@Mike> you may see visions
[22:24] <@Mike> things others do not
[22:24] <@Mike> or you may hear voices inside or outside your head
[22:25] <@Mike> these things are in NO way under your control to have or not have
[22:25] <@Mike> and for most psychotics, they cannot distinguish these from everyone ELSES reality
[22:25] * Joins: dubie ([email protected])
[22:26] <@Mike> the things you saw in A BEAUTIFUL MIND, while a great concept, are not a realistic view of someone with a true thought disorder
[22:26] <Mega> no, not my idea
[22:26] <@Mike> did that help at all, mega?
[22:26] <Mega> no, but I have to think how to ask it differently
[22:27] <@Mike> illogical thought patterns are things we learn. Hallucinations are things we experience because of chemical disorder
[22:27] -Coloredbrush- great clarification
[22:27] <@Mike> gourou? You had a question?
[22:27] -Mike- thank you
[22:27] <Gourou> I think most people would agree that drinking alcohol + driving = accident ... Is this over generalizing? I mean this is what occurs most of the time so we tend to take it as a FACT. I tend to apply the same process to relationships, events in my life, etc... This is where I get lost
[22:27] <@Mike> this will be the last question so we can move on to more mindfulness
[22:28] <@Mike> not sure what the question there is, but you bring up a great point that we will be going over shortly
[22:29] <@Mike> the idea that emotions, while they fell real and may be real (because you are experiencing them) are NOT necessarily reality
[22:29] <@Mike> I have a number of friends that routinely drink alcohol and drive without getting into accidents
[22:29] <Gourou> good point
[22:30] <@Mike> I do not approve of their actions (and often voice that), but it DOES happen
[22:30] <@Mike> (aside - I used to think it was a "southern thing", till I moved back north and now my northern friends do it *shakes head*)
[22:30] <@Mike> anyway, I digress
[22:30] <@Mike> back to mindfulness
[22:31] <@Mike> does anyone here NOT have the skills training handbook?
[22:31] <Mega> I do not.
[22:31] <@Mike> shout out if you don't. Don't be bashful
[22:31] * dubie is now known as holds_up_hand
[22:31] <@Mike> LOL
[22:31] <@Mike> funny
[22:31] <@Mike> okay. I will describe some of the handouts, then
[22:31] * holds_up_hand is now known as dubie
[22:32] <@Mike> for those of you without a book, it may be best if you get a sheet or two of paper and a writing utensil
[22:32] <@Mike> will make some of the concepts a little easier to visualize them as well as talk about them
[22:33] <@Mike> all right. here we go
[22:33] <@Mike> linehan talks about some goals of what it is we are trying to accomplish here
[22:34] <@Mike> she specifically gets to: what types of behaviors are going to try to learn to avoid
[22:34] <@Mike> she looks at 4
[22:34] <@Mike> interpersonal chaos - this is often seen as a series of intense but chaotic relationships
[22:35] <@Mike> it is most often in the context of sexual/love relationships, but may be other types as well
[22:35] <@Mike> labile or quickly shifting intense moods is the second thing we are going to try to learn to regulate with mindfulness
[22:36] <@Mike> the third behavior we want to use mindfulness to decrease in impulsiveness. ESPECIALLY in regards to self-destructive or self-harming behaviors
[22:36] <@Mike> and the last is confusion about the self otherwise known as identity disturbance
[22:37] <@Coloredbrush> ?
[22:37] * Joins: nicci ([email protected])
[22:37] <@Mike> if it appears that a number of these have been pulled directly from the diagnostic criteria for borderline personality disorder in the DSM 4
[22:37] <@Mike> that's because it was
[22:37] <@Mike> these are the basic issues that people who have bpd experience
[22:38] <@Mike> the behaviors we are looking to increase are the 4 core skills I spoke of earlier - mindfulness, interpersonal effectiveness, emotional regulation, and distress tolerance
[22:39] <@Mike> coloredbrush - did you have a question?
[22:39] <@Coloredbrush> I never understood what it meant when said, confusion about self, identity disturbance
[22:40] <@Mike> identity disturbance is when one is confused about who one is. What is my purpose? Why am I here?
[22:40] <@Coloredbrush> okay, thank you, that helps a lot
[22:40] <@Mike> a number of my clients tell me that they have no idea who they are
[22:40] <@Mike> that they have somehow either "lost themselves' or worse yet
[22:40] <@Mike> never had any clear sense of who they were 
[22:40] <@Mike> this is an identity disturbance
[22:40] <@Coloredbrush> have no purpose, is the keyword to me, thank you
[22:40] <@Mike> :-)
[22:41] <@Mike> this may manifest itself in a number of ways, but if you'd like to know more, just contact me after this :-)
[22:41] <@Mike> for those of you with books, open to page 109
[22:42] <@Mike> for those you without, I want you to draw something on your paper
[22:42] <@Mike> draw 2 circles, roughly the same size, interlocking so there is a bit in the center of the two circles that both of them share
[22:43] <@Mike> in one of the circles write "reasonable", on the opposite side write "emotional". in the center (where the two link) write "wise"
[22:43] <@Mike> this is our "states of mind" graphic
[22:44] <@Mike> it is a very simple graphic for some very increasingly complex concepts
[22:44] <@Mike> I shall start off by having ya'll help me again. 
[22:44] <@Mike> what kinds of things do you think the reasonable side of our mind deals with?
[22:44] <@Coloredbrush> logic
[22:45] <@Mike> good. what else?
[22:45] <Caltex> rationality
[22:45] <@Mike> okay
[22:45] <@Mike> anyone else?
[22:45] <@Coloredbrush> solving problems
[22:45] <@Mike> advanced thinking. For reasons that will become clear in a few minutes, I might dispute that one, though
[22:46] -Mike- basically, I would contend that our emotional mind could solve some problems, too :-)
[22:46] <@Mike> that it?
[22:46] <@Mike> okay
[22:46] <@Mike> the reasonable side does all of that
[22:46] <@Mike> it deals with FACTS
[22:47] <@Mike> some examples of facts are: 
[22:47] <@Mike> the sky is blue
[22:47] <@Mike> 2 + 3 = 5
[22:47] <@Mike> it is raining outside
[22:47] <@Mike> facts are, for the most part, devoid of feeling. The two are essentially opposites.
[22:48] <@Mike> how do you feel about the sky being blue?
[22:48] <@Emmespalace> void of any feeling
[22:48] <@Mike> how do you feel about a math equation?
[22:48] <@Mike> pretty much
[22:48] <@Mike> some things that are 'facts', that are our reality, MAY have emotional attachment
[22:48] <@Mike> my mother died last night
[22:48] <@Mike> is that a fact?
[22:49] <@Mike> it may be, and we may well attach a significant amount of emotion to it
[22:49] <@Emmespalace> yes
[22:49] <@Mike> but in general, we need to start being able to distinguish what are 'facts' and what are not
[22:49] <@Mike> facts are what the reasonable mind deal with
[22:50] <@Mike> the emotional mind deals with (drum roll please)........
[22:50] <@Mike> FEELINGS
[22:50] <@Mike> nothing more than feelings *singing*
[22:50] <@Mike> sorry
[22:50] <@Mike> anyway
[22:50] <@Mike> the feelings are often what get in our way
[22:51] <@Mike> all of the clients that *I* deal with are in the partial hospital because they have had some type of problem with their emotions
[22:51] <@Mike> speaking of......
[22:51] <@Mike> lets figure out what emotions are. what emotions or feelings we have.
[22:51] <@Mike> what are some examples of feelings?
[22:51] <dubie> sad, happy
[22:51] <nicci> hurt
[22:51] <@Mike> good
[22:51] <nicci> and angry
[22:51] <Gourou> emptiness
[22:51] <@Mike> keep em coming
[22:51] <@Coloredbrush> FEAR
[22:52] <Nicci> frustration
[22:52] <Gourou> anxiety?
[22:52] <@Mike> yes
[22:52] <@Emmespalace> loneliness
[22:52] <@Coloredbrush> hate
[22:52] <@Mike> a good way to tell if it is a feeling is that feelings can usually be stated with 1 word
[22:52] <Dubie> confusion
[22:52] <Caltex> confusion
[22:52] <@Mike> I feel ________
[22:52] <Nicci> a "why bother" feeling
[22:53] <@Mike> that's called apathy or apathetic
[22:53] <@Mike> there is another good feeling word called ambivalent - I don't KNOW what I want
[22:53] <@Mike> I just know I need SOMETHING
[22:53] <@Mike> all good examples
[22:54] <@Mike> a great thing to do is practice your "I messages" several times a day, even if it is only with/to yourself
[22:54] <@Mike> identify what is inside
[22:54] <@Mike> how am I feeling right now?
[22:54] <@Mike> "I feel _____"
[22:54] <@Mike> one word
[22:54] <@Mike> when someone says "I feel like you are not..."
[22:54] <@Mike> I say, that's a thought
[22:55] <@Mike> it may be a GOOD thought, but try to figure out what the feeling behind that thought is
[22:55] <@Mike> "I feel calm"
[22:55] <@Mike> "I feel ANGRY"
[22:55] <@Mike> "I feel scared and alone"
[22:56] <@Mike> "I feel love for you and also fear that you will abandon me"
[22:56] <@Mike> these are "I messages"
[22:56] <@Mike> they will help us to identify our own feelings, own our feelings and express them to others without attacking them
[22:57] <@Mike> an important thing to remember is that, as human beings, we ALL have both of these sides of our minds. Rational and emotional
[22:57] <@Mike> but I often have clients that tell me that they "live" in one side or the other - that they are more often rational or emotional.
[22:57] <@Mike> lets do a roll call - sound off with where YOU "live" 
[22:58] <@Emmespalace> I tend to be more in touch with my rational mind now a days
[22:58] <@Mike> thanks. Good
[22:58] <@Mike> who else?
[22:58] <@Mike> rational or emotional. Where do you tend to be most often?
[22:59] <Mega> rational
[22:59] <Dubie> rational
[22:59] <@Coloredbrush> that's hard for me mike, cause I live in both, but never at the same time, sometimes I am totally rational, mostly that is when I am really angry and some days I am totally emotional, I cant ever seem to be in the middle
[22:59] <@Mike> excellent explanation
[22:59] <@Mike> because that's right where I'm leading us
[22:59] <Gourou> I'm pretty much rational... but I feel the emotional part hitting the door trying to "get in" by little burst and mood swings
[23:00] <@Mike> people who tell me that they live in the emotional mind tend to tell me things like "im tired of crying all the time" or "people tell me things and I just BLOW UP at them"
[23:00] <@Mike> people who are reasonable tend to tell me things like "I don't even HAVE any emotions, until someone pushes me too far, then WATCH OUT"
[23:01] <@Mike> this is where I am going to introduce the idea of balance to you
[23:01] <@Mike> (remember all the way back to where we started? :-))
[23:01] <@Mike> if you are reasonable, the idea is not to 'become' totally emotional and throw that rationality to the wind
[23:02] <@Mike> likewise, if you are emotion, the idea is not to give up on those dam feelings and just dwell in reason-land
[23:02] <@Mike> what we all want to strive for is a balance between the two - to 'give voice' to both your reasonable as well as your emotional minds
[23:03] <@Mike> when I can acknowledge the facts of the situation, as well as the 'facts' about how I FEEL because it (my own emotional reaction), I am half to getting to the wise mind
[23:03] <@Mike> the wise mind is about finding that place where reason and emotion come TOGETHER
[23:04] <@Mike> some of you have heard the term 'dialectical behavior therapy' or dbt
[23:04] <@Mike> dialectics is about bringing things that seem to be opposites together
[23:04] <@Mike> this is the first of those things
[23:05] <@Mike> I failed my test (fact) and I feel awful. I want to hurt myself now (may be a fact) but I realize that this pain will go away in time (wise mind statement)
[23:05] <@Mike> another wise mind statement to that fact may be seen as a cheerleading statement
[23:06] <@Mike> I failed my test (fact). But I realize that everyone fails at some things. I can study more for the next test
[23:06] <@Mike> or perhaps you DID study and that's where some of this lousy feeling is coming from
[23:06] <@Mike> in that case:
[23:07] <@Mike> I failed my test, but maybe mathematics is just not a subject im going to excel in. 
[23:07] <@Mike> is it true that no one is great at everything?
[23:07] <@Mike> of course it is
[23:07] <@Mike> and the wise mind is about being able to allow yourself to see that. even about you
[23:08] <@Mike> because sometimes we can allow OTHERS to be imperfect beings all day long, but cannot, for one SECOND, allow ourselves to be anything less than perfect
[23:09] <@Mike> the last thing that I want to focus on tonight is 7 actual skills that you can use for mindfulness
[23:09] <@Mike> once again, these are not (in the form im going to give them) in your book, so I apologize for that
[23:10] <@Mike> the 7 skills are as follows:
[23:10] <@Mike> 1. Observation
[23:10] <@Mike> this is a mindfulness skill that has to do with awareness
[23:11] <@Mike> awareness of yourself, your own actions and reaction, what is inside and how you are being on the outside
[23:11] <@Mike> also part of this awareness is what is happening in your environment. What things are you responding TO
[23:11] <@Mike> all of this is important 
[23:11] <@Mike> the skill to practice here is called observe with the beginners mind
[23:12] <@Mike> the beginners mind is like that of a child seeing things for the first time. Taking in all of the sights, sounds smells, tastes
[23:12] <@Mike> recognizing all that is around us as well as all that is inside
[23:13] <@Mike> when using the beginners mind, don't stop to evaluate yet - simply experience
[23:13] <@Mike> 2. Describe and label
[23:13] <@Mike> this skill is putting the experiences we are having into words
[23:14] <@Mike> it is not a judgment - it is simply a description of the things that you are noticing with your beginners mind
[23:14] <@Mike> be careful of judging things as 'good' or 'bad', 'right' or 'wrong'
[23:14] <@Mike> there are no 'wrong' feelings, only ones we may not enjoy
[23:15] <@Mike> 3. Experience
[23:15] <@Mike> be an active participant in your own life
[23:15] <@Mike> here, I fall back to the Nike commercial - just does it
[23:16] <@Mike> being spontaneous and doing things for the fun of it can increase your joy, and your spontaneity
[23:16] <@Mike> it can also help you lead a less boring life ;-)
[23:16] <@Mike> 4. Patience
[23:16] <@Mike> begin to understand that things happen in their own time, at there own pace
[23:16] <@Mike> you cannot force a moment to happen faster, no matter how hard you try
[23:17] <@Mike> learn to enjoy the moment we are in
[23:17] <@Mike> patience can be a difficult skill to master, because no one feels right about watering dirt
[23:17] <@Mike> but it must be done so that a beautiful flowerbed may grow in the spring
[23:18] <@Mike> 5. trust, not judge
[23:18] <@Mike> begin to trust in your own experience, your own feelings
[23:18] <@Mike> learning not to judge often begins with others, but always leads us home
[23:19] <@Mike> in my experience, if someone is harshly judgmental of others, they are also hypercritical of themselves
[23:19] <@Mike> judgment is a harsh mistress and it is what 
[23:19] <@Mike> 'justifies' a number of our destructive acts
[23:19] <@Mike> such as hurting ourselves or others
[23:20] <@Mike> in our program, we work hard at making people aware of when they are judging themselves or someone else
[23:20] <@Mike> whenever we hear a judgment, we tap the side of our nose with our finger to let them know, without verbally interrupting them
[23:21] <@Mike> try this at home. it may help you to become more aware of how much you judge
[23:21] <@Mike> 6. Acceptance
[23:21] <@Mike> acceptance is about acknowledging what is
[23:21] <@Mike> what is reality?
[23:21] <@Mike> what is my own experience?
[23:22] <@Mike> denial of what is reality, what is my own experience can only lead to one place: suffering
[23:22] <@Mike> pain hurts. no one LIKES to feel it. but it is only when we allow ourselves to feel the pain, to accept it, that we can stop suffering and
[23:22] <@Mike> 7. let it go
[23:23] <@Mike> this is the last of our mindfulness skills
[23:23] <@Mike> letting it go is realizing that I do not have to hold onto painful emotions or thoughts
[23:23] <@Emmespalace> ok does anyone have any questions for mike?
[23:23] <@Coloredbrush> ?
[23:24] <@Mike> go ahead
[23:24] <@Emmespalace> coloredbrush your question please
[23:24] <@Mike> (becomes mindful that he talks a LOT....)
[23:24] <@Emmespalace> lol
[23:25] <Caltex> ?
[23:25] <Mega> ?
[23:25] <@Coloredbrush> I have the most difficulty with acceptance, because I equate it with forgiveness I guess, I think if I accept the things that happened or are happening, that it makes it right.... so what can be done to help my thinking that to accept something does not mean that it was right to begin with
[23:25] <@Mike> excellent point
[23:25] <@Mike> to accept something is NOT the same as to judge it as right or wrong
[23:26] <@Mike> acceptance is about NON-denial
[23:26] <@Mike> it does NOT mean that I believe something was good, or right
[23:26] <@Mike> in a harsh example, I use a rape
[23:26] <@Mike> that may be a horrible, traumatic experience
[23:27] <@Mike> denying it happened doesn't make it NOT have happened
[23:27] <@Mike> it just prolongs pain and increases suffering
[23:28] <@Mike> acceptance that this is a part of my experience means not denying it any longer, but it does NOT mean saying that I in any way WANTED it to happen, liked it, or that I forgive that person
[23:28] <@Mike> I think caltex is next
[23:28] <Caltex> what is the difference between impulsiveness and spontaneity and also if you are saying that one is to trust in your own feelings - how does that work if you are mainly operating from your emotional mind,?
[23:29] <@Mike> first, impulsiveness has to do with thoughtlessness - anti-mindfulness, if you will
[23:29] <@Mike> impulsiveness MAY not be a bad thing - it doesn't HAVE to be. But a number of my clients tell me that their 'impulses' can get them into a LOT of trouble
[23:30] <@Mike> spontaneity has to do with doing things because they will be fun, even when we may not want to. If a friend asks me to go to the park, and I don't really WANT to, it may be spontaneous to just say, yeah, what the hell. Why not. You have still thought about it, though
[23:30] <@Mike> did that clarify?
[23:31] <@Mike> the second has to do with trusting yourself
[23:31] <@Coloredbrush> good clarification, mike, I appreciated the question too
[23:31] <@Mike> we are all (the ones of us that are human, anyway) born with what I call internal radar
[23:31] <Caltex> sort of - I'm just thinking at that precise moment of deciding to do something - can you tell if it is a spontaneous action or an impulsive action
[23:32] <@Mike> if you think about it, and think about the outcome or consequences, then it isn't, by definition, impulsive
[23:32] <Caltex> ok, that does clarify it
[23:32] <Caltex> thank you
[23:32] <@Emmespalace> mega your question please
[23:32] <Mega> same q as Caltex. Thanks
[23:32] <@Mike> hold on
[23:32] <@Mike> second part here
[23:33] <@Mike> some of us, mainly through invalidation in childhood, have learned to turn our radar off - to not trust our gut because we were reputedly told that we were wrong or did not know how we felt
[23:33] <@Mike> well, we are not wrong. 
[23:33] <@Mike> you cannot have 'wrong' feelings
[23:33] <@Mike> so turn your radar back on.
[23:34] <@Mike> that doesn't mean that you have to ACT on whatever emotion you are feeling, but suppressing them will not help you
[23:34] <@Mike> hopefully, that answered part 2. Sorry. back to mega
[23:34] <Caltex> thank you, it did
[23:35] <@Mike back to Mega's question?
[23:35] <Mega> who defines reality? the therapist?
[23:35] <@Mike> good one
[23:35] <@Mike> no
[23:35] <@Mike> reality is just reality
[23:35] <@Mike> it defines itself
[23:35] <@Mike> what is real? what is the situation?
[23:35] <Mega> but obviously we decode it wrongly
[23:35] <@Mike> sometimes, we allow our own emotions to cloud our perception of what reality is
[23:36] <@Mike> as an example, I will use another client I have had in the past
[23:36] <@Mike> they would tell me that when their significant other left for work, they felt abandoned
[23:36] <@Mike> the reality was, that person was leaving for work
[23:37] <@Mike> but the bpd's reality was - if you are not physically with me, I cannot feel you with me. If I cannot feel you with me, then we are not together at all - you have left me forever
[23:38] <@Mike> that answer sounds somewhat elusive, but im not sure how to better answer it
[23:38] <Mega> given that situation, what would the path to take be
[23:38] <@Mike> a therapist does not have any better way of 'detecting reality' :-) [23:39] <@Mike> are there any other questions?
[23:39] <@Mike> I want you to know ya'll have come up with some great stuff tonight
[23:39] <@Mike> ah
[23:39] <@Mike> didn't realize that was a question
[23:39] <@Mike> given that situation, I would ask the bpd person to first of all, define reality. What are the facts in the situation?
[23:40] <@Mike> then look at the emotional side. What emotions are brought out?
[23:40] <@Mike> and lastly, I would ask him/her to give me some wise mind statements they could tell themselves
[23:41] <@Mike> all of these skills, from mindfulness on, have everything to do with practice. The ONLY way to get good at them is to practice
[23:41] <@Mike> they have to become habits if you want them to work
[23:41] <@Mike> I know this is true because I have practiced them until they have become habits for me
[23:41] <@Mike> and they do work
[23:41] <@Emmespalace> does anyone else have a last question for mike this evening
[23:42] <Gourou> ?
[23:42] <@Emmespalace> yes gourou
[23:42] <@Mike> this was fun, everyone. I hope you enjoyed it
[23:42] <Gourou> When will be the second class ;)
[23:42] <@Pattytoday> I greatly enjoyed it and learned a lot.
[23:42] <@Coloredbrush> mike, a lot of times in the support room, I have ppl come in saying they feel great today, that is when I usually ask them to practice a mindfulness skill or other skill, because it helps to practice when you feel great so you know how it feels and you can draw on it when you are feeling not so great
[23:42] <Caltex> yes, thank you very much from down under (p.s. what's your address so I can send the air ticket?)
[23:42] <@Mike> :-)
[23:43] <@Mike> good point, brush
[23:43] <@Mike> practice when you are feeling good so that it becomes more automatic when you aren't
[23:43] <@Mike> habits take time to build
[23:43] <@Emmespalace> can I have the floor for a couple of minutes to conclude everything
[23:43] <@Mike> and bad ones take a LONG time to break :-)
[23:43] <@Mike> all yours
[23:44] <@Emmespalace> I'm glad everyone enjoyed tonight's chat, and we will be having more chats
[23:44] <@Emmespalace> if you didn't get the newsletter telling you of this chat please subscribe to it by going to www.mental-health-today.com and joining the newsletter it's free
[23:45] <@Emmespalace> also we will be posting this chat so that everyone can read it
[23:45] <@Pattytoday> actually that URL will get you to the mental health newsletter. you can get the BPD/BPp newsletter by going to the BPD today site by going to http://www.mental-health-today.com/borderline/
[23:45] -Mike- you are all very welcome
[23:46] <@Emmespalace> if you have any idea's suggestions on how to make this chat better for you please send an email directly to me at [email protected]
[23:46] -Coloredbrush- I have been in DBT for 4 years and I totally learn more every time I meet someone who is GREAT
[23:46] <@Mike> thank you all for having me and listening to me drone on :-)
[23:46] <@Emmespalace> Mike I would like to thank you very much for your wonderful discussion tonight and at this time would love to invite you back 
[23:46] <@Pattytoday> Thanks so much Mike for taking your time to do this
[23:46] <@Pattytoday> it was wonderful.
[23:46] <Gourou> Thank you very much Mike
[23:47] <@Emmespalace> we can set a date later on if that is ok with you
[23:47] <Dubie> thank you
[23:47] -Mike- I hope we can get even more people for the next one. more people = better discussion :-)
[23:47] <@Mike> absolutely
[23:47] -Mike- the discussions were fun
[23:47] <@Emmespalace> if everyone here tells a friend in the bpd community we will have an awesome chat conversance next time
[23:48] <Gourou> I will
[23:48] -Pattytoday- oh that's right
[23:48] <@Emmespalace> I'm thinking after the first of the year for our next chat conversance everyone
[23:48] <Dubie> me too
[23:49] <Caltex> oh, do we have to wait that long???? This was so good; I can't wait for the next
[23:49] <@Pattytoday> all the conferences and lots more are discussed in the newsletter
[23:49] <@Mike> sounds good. Again, thanks for all of your participation and patience
[23:49] <@Pattytoday> Thanks Mike
[23:49] <@Mike> you are all very welcome
[23:49] <@Mike> *bows*
[23:49] <@Pattytoday> Good night everyone!!!!!!
[23:49] <@Emmespalace> I know some people here were not able to ask questions due to star chat's registration rules if you go to www.starchat.net and register your nickname you will be able to join in the discussion next time
[23:50] <@Mike> night :-)
[23:50] <@Emmespalace> be well everyone :)