Dialectical Behavior Therapy (Interpersonal Effectiveness Skills) Chat Conference With Mike Staub M.S. - 12/10/02

[21:11]<@emmespalace> I'm going to get us started by introducing our guest speaker tonight who once again is Mr. Mike Staub. Mr. Staub has a masters in clinical psychology from Northwestern State University in Louisiana and teaches and works with clients with DBT Skills Training
[21:12] <@emmespalace> While it is usually a good thing to chat in a chat room while this chat goes on I'm going to ask that you please not chat but place a? mark next to your name if you have a question, I will take note and call on you in the order of the ? marks
[21:18] <@emmespalace> Mike I had a chance to reread the log from the last chat and I was wondering if at some point you would be interested in maybe answering questions people may still have about that chat
[21:19] <@Mike_> of course
[21:19] <@Mike_> fire away at any time
[21:19] <@Mike_> I need to make a standard preface to each of these talks
[21:19] <@emmespalace> like you told us a lot of information about what the skill is but maybe this time you could give suggestions on how to do them
[21:20] <@Mike_> having to do with this not being a substitute for skills training/therapy, etc. etc.
[21:20] <@Mike_> sure. Mindfulness is tough to give specific suggestions, but easier when people can give examples of how THEVE used it
[21:20] <@emmespalace> no I don't mean this to be that but like when you were talking about putting things off I hear people avoiding all the time
[21:21] <@Mike_> not certain I understand what you mean by that
[21:21] <@emmespalace> or like when someone is running those old tapes in their minds about how terrible a person they are, tell them how to stop that not that they just have to stop them
[21:22] <@Mike_> well, that isn't a mindfulness skill :-)
[21:22] <@Mike_> we're going to discuss a bit of that tonight, in interpersonal effectiveness
[21:22] <@Mike_> one of the subsets of IE is self-esteem
[21:23] <@Mike_> and self-esteem building
[21:23] <@emmespalace> ok
[21:23] <@emmespalace> we have a couple more people coming to join us now
[21:23] <Mishie> I think she means just general suggestions on how to make use of the skills you're discussing ... like in that case focusing on the positive to take your mind off the negative
[21:25] <@emmespalace> yes thanks mishie
[21:29] <@emmespalace> Welcome everyone tonight to our chat on Interpersonal Effectiveness DBT Skills
[21:30] <@Mike_> thank you
[21:31] <@Mike_> tonight I will continue the talk on Marsha lineman's dialectical behavior therapy skills
[21:31] <@Mike_> we started this series with mindfulness last month and tonight we shall take a look at interpersonal effectiveness
[21:31] <@Mike_> a word of warning first and foremost:
[21:32] <@Mike_> this is NOT intended to be a comprehensive look at the skills at hand
[21:32] <@Mike_> nor is it meant to serve as therapy or a substitute for skills training
[21:33] <@Mike_> rather, it is meant to review some skills that many of you already know and allow you to ask some questions to help understand the skill better
[21:33] <@Mike_> that said lets look at interpersonal effectiveness :-)
[21:33] <@Mike_> as em noted earlier, my style for this series is a combination of lecture and lecture by getting input from my students
[21:34] <@Mike_> so I'm going to start off by asking ya'll what interpersonal effectiveness is to you?
[21:34] <@Mike_> anyone?
[21:34] <caltex> being effective in the way we relate interpersonally to one another
[21:34] <@Mike_> what do you think it means?
[21:35] <@Mike_> excellent
[21:35] <@Mike_> anyone else?
[21:35] <caltex> that is being respectful to ourselves as well as the other person
[21:35] <@Mike_> good
[21:35] <@Mike_> anyone want to add something?
[21:35] <@emmespalace> listening well to our own needs as well as others
[21:35] <@Mike_> alright
[21:35] <@Mike_> lemme tell you what our book says
[21:36] <@Mike_> (I'm using the DBT skills training manual, in case anyone is wondering)
[21:36] <@Mike_> she talks about 4 primary situations when we use interpersonal effectiveness
[21:37] <@Mike_> in attending to relationships, balancing priorities and demands, balancing shoulds-to-wants, and building mastery and self respect
[21:37] <@Mike_> as I detail each of these, see if they make some sense in the context of your own lives
[21:38] <@Mike_> in attending to relationships, don't let things (hurts, etc.) build up
[21:38] <@Mike_> use your relationship skills to head problems off at the pass, get out of hopeless relationships and resolve conflicts before they destroy relationships
[21:39] <@Mike_> in regards to balancing priorities vs. demands
[21:39] <@Mike_> learn how to put off lower priority things, ASK FOR HELP, create structure
[21:40] <@Mike_> with balancing shoulds-to-wants, learn how to give up 'shoulds'
[21:40] <@Mike_> as we discussed with mindfulness, shoulds allows us to beat up on others and ourselves. They don't reflect reality; they only hinder our way of thinking about reality
[21:41] <@Mike_> and last is building mastery and self respect. 
[21:41] <@Mike_> this has to do with acting in ways that make you feel confident and competent
[21:41] <@Mike_> stand up for yourself, your beliefs and your opinions.
[21:42] <@Mike_> these 4 things are the situations we will be using IE skills in
[21:42] <@Mike_> so what I'd like to look at now is that second handout
[21:42] <@Mike_> it has to do with the GOALS of interpersonal effectiveness
[21:42] <@emmespalace> what page is that on Mike
[21:42] <@Mike_> what are we trying to accomplish?
[21:42] <@Mike_> 116
[21:43] <@Mike_> there are 3 things (goals) that come into play in ANY interaction with another person
[21:43] <@Mike_> (and I DO mean ANY interaction)
[21:44] <@Mike_> this from buying a newspaper from a corner vendor to trying to convince your significant other to do something and every interaction in between
[21:44] <@Mike_> they ALL have these 3 things (goals), in some form or another
[21:44] <@Mike_> they are as follows:
[21:44] <@Mike_> 1) objective - getting SOMETHING
[21:45] <@Mike_> that something could be my legitimate rights, getting someone to do something, saying 'no' to an unwanted request, resolving conflict or being taken seriously
[21:46] <@Mike_> there are 2 questions to ask yourself about objective effectiveness - a) what specific results or changes do I want to see fro this interaction?
[21:46] <@Mike_> and b) what do I have to do to get it?
[21:46] <@Mike_> what will work?
[21:46] <@Mike_> the second goal is 2) getting or keeping a good relationship
[21:47] <@Mike_> with this goal, we have to act in such a way that the other person continues to like AND respect us, as well as balance the immediate goal with the good of the long term relationship
[21:48] <@Mike_> so questions here are: how do I want the other person to FEEL about me after we are done?
[21:48] <@Mike_> and what do I have to do to get (or keep) the relationship?
[21:48] <@Mike_> lastly is self-respect effectiveness.
[21:48] <@Mike_> this is acting in such a way that preserves your own personal integrity and acting in ways that make you feel capable and effective
[21:49] <@Mike_> now that we know what the 3 goals ARE, lets look at them in some detail
[21:49] <@Mike_> objective effectiveness is first, so we'll start there
[21:49] <@Mike_> lets say that I need a ride home from group tonight
[21:50] <@Mike_> I'll have to ask someone, so the ride home is my objective
[21:50] <@Mike_> it's something I'm trying to obtain from another person
[21:50] <@Mike_> in another example ill be using, we might see a McDonalds cheeseburger as an objective.
[21:50] <@Mike_> I'm hungry, and I need to fill my stomach
[21:51] <@Mike_> the cheeseburger becomes my objective
[21:51] <@Mike_> moving on to relationship effectiveness
[21:51] <@Mike_> I'd like to take a brief pause here to explore an often-asked question
[21:51] <@Mike_> what IS a good relationship?
[21:52] <@emmespalace> one that is equal to both parties
[21:52] <@Mike_> so here I'll get some feedback from ya'll again. What things are involved in or required for a good relationship?
[21:52] <dubie> open communication
[21:52] <tailorgirl> respect
[21:52] <@Mike_> equality, communication, good
[21:52] <@Mike_> also important
[21:52] <@Mike_> Anyone else?
[21:53] <tailorgirl> trust
[21:53] <@Mike_> trust is another one that often comes up and for myself; caring and compassion are likewise essential
[21:53] <caltex> growth
[21:53] <@Mike_> figuring out what makes a good relationship for YOU is the important thing
[21:54] <@Mike_> it will be a little different for each and every one of us
[21:54] <@Mike_> tailorgirl might find that trust and open communication are essential for her, while caltex might believe that growth and respect are most important
[21:55] <@Mike_> determine what are things for YOU that are essential, what are the things that are desirable
[21:55] <@pattytoday> Don't we have to love ourselves?
[21:55] <@Mike_> debatable (I'd say yes), but that will come into play more with our last objective, self respect
[21:56] <@Mike_> remember that we have different relationships with different people. I'm not just referring to primary LOVE relationships when ask what's essential in a good relationship
[21:57] -pattytoday- I thought he was asking for feedback
[21:57] <@Mike_> I'm also talking about parent, child, aunt or uncle, friend, co-worker, or just someone you meet on the street
[21:57] <@Mike_> ALL of these are relationships and determining what a good one is for YOU is what's important
[21:58] <@Mike_> for many people, that may be something they've never even pondered before - what makes a good relationship for me?
[21:58] -pattytoday- sex
[21:58] -pattytoday- ok I'll be serious.
[21:58] -Mike_- actually, that CAN be an important part
[21:58] -Mike_- and often DOES come up in my group
[21:59] <@Mike_> I do, however, make one caveat to that
[21:59] <@Mike_> and an important one, at that
[21:59] <@Mike_> I ask people to make sure they engage in SAFE sex
[22:00] <@Mike_> anyone know what I mean by that?
[22:00] <dubie> abstinence
[22:00] <@pattytoday> condoms
[22:00] <@Mike_> :-) nope
[22:00] <@Mike_> and nope
[22:00] <@emmespalace> know your partner use precautions
[22:00] <@Rainbow_Chaser> emotionally safe
[22:00] <@Mike_> I'm talking about safe EMOTIONAL sex
[22:00] <ArcticChill> Choosing the right partner, not giving yourself freely?
[22:00] <@pattytoday> there IS no safe emotional sex
[22:00] <@Mike_> partly right, ac
[22:01] <@Mike_> I have some questions to ask yourself
[22:01] <@Mike_> first
[22:01] <@Mike_> 1) how do I feel before, during and especially after I have sex with this person?
[22:01] <@Mike_> there are 3 ways I COULD feel about myself - better than I was, about the same, or worse than I was
[22:02] <@Mike_> safe emotional sex means that, at the very least, you feel about the same as you did before
[22:02] <@Mike_> if you consistently feel WORSE about yourself afterward, you really need to examine that relationship and determine if it is indeed a safe one for you to be in
[22:03] <@Mike_> the other question is a 2 partner
[22:03] <@Mike_> 1) what does this person do for me that a pet (dog or cat) COULDNT do?
[22:04] <@Mike_> basically, what do I get from this person that I COULDN'T get from a pet
[22:04] <@Mike_> and the reciprocal question
[22:04] <@Mike_> what would I get from a pet that I don't get from this person?
[22:04] <@Mike_> lets take some questions
[22:05] <@emmespalace> Arcticchill your question please
[22:05] <ArcticChill> Allright, I have to things
[22:05] <ArcticChill> First, you stated "what makes a good relationship for me?"
[22:05] <@Mike_> yes. 
[22:06] <@Mike_> what do you find essential to having a good relationship?
[22:06] <ArcticChill> this, in my opinion, is not always the case...I personally like to keep an open mind, working both with the person and with myself to develop a good relationship.
[22:06] <ArcticChill> this, perhaps, leaves room for self-improvement
[22:07] <ArcticChill> Just adding a different perspective
[22:07] <@Mike_> true enough. But most people find there are certain things that they are not willing to be flexible on. Things that are absolutely necessary for them to be in a 'good' relationship
[22:07] <@Mike_> such as trust, respect, caring, openness, etc
[22:08] <@Mike_> all these things are very personal and unique to the individual
[22:08] <@Mike_> what's the second question?
[22:08] <ArcticChill> Very true...I was going to say something about "safe emotional sex" but that skips my mind...may I finally comment that your question regarding the PET is an excellent way to look at that particular situation
[22:09] <@Mike_> thank you, I do what I can. Who else has a question before we go on?
[22:09] <@emmespalace> Mishie, your question please.
[22:09] <Mishie> I just thought I should point out. Considering the order of the questions... safe sex is something we shouldn't be getting from our pets. And therefore. Can be discounted in the "what do I get from this person I couldn't get from a pet" question (a bit of jest there but the order of the questions just killed me...)
[22:09] <@Mike_> :-)
[22:10] <@Mike_> yes. the sex, I HOPE, would be filled under the "what do I get from this person I wouldn't from a pet?" category
[22:10] <Mishie> :D
[22:10] <@Mike_> if not, a call to the local ASPCA might be in order, from the neighbors
[22:10] <@emmespalace> daisy your question please
[22:11] <daisy82> you said about safe sex emotionally we should feel the same before and after....what about feeling insecure and than feeling really high and top of the world after? Does that make the relationship unhealthy?
[22:12] <@Mike_> not necessarily
[22:12] <Mishie> can I input something here?
[22:13] <@Mike_> please do
[22:13] <@Mike_> the insecurity might be coming from within - insecurity about oneself
[22:14] <Mishie> I think it's ok to feel on top of the world.. as long as that's not the only reason you're doing it. and that's not the only place you get that feeling from. such as. I think I'll sleep with this guy to make me feel better about myself..
[22:14] <@Mike_> however - if after sex you regularly feel like crap, even because of your OWN insecurity, that is definitely something you want to look into. It may not be a bad relationship, but you may be suffering from very low self-esteem
[22:14] <@Mike_> wow. EXCELLENT point, mishie
[22:15] <Mishie> because relying on other people to make you feel good about yourself is very unhealthy, and that can be another facet
[22:15] <@Mike_> sex can become like a number of other negative coping skills when used to try to cope with problems you are having
[22:15] <michelle> what if you are in love with them and with them for 2 years but you feel like you have to have sex just to get close? 
[22:15] <@Mike_> yeah. That's exactly what we are talking about
[22:16] <@Mike_> if the only way I can feel 'close' or 'connected' to you is sex, then there might be some problems to explore there
[22:16] <@Mike_> that falls under that question, "what do I have to do to get (or keep) this relationship?
[22:17] <@Mike_> if I have to have sex with them in order to keep this relationship, what happens to your self-esteem?
[22:17] <@Mike_> <that was directed mainly towards Michelle>
[22:17] <michelle> I don't feel like I have to have sex to keep it but I just want that closeness? and how do you go about doing that?
[22:18] <@Mike_> :-)
[22:18] <@Mike_> emotional openness
[22:18] <@Mike_> sharing yourself in a non-sexual way
[22:18] <@Mike_> the way I get close to someone is by being open and honest about my feelings
[22:19] <@Mike_> and listening to what theirs are
[22:19] <@Mike_> does that help?
[22:19] <girly82> yes it does thanx:-)
[22:19] <@Mike_> any other questions before I move on, em?
[22:19] <ArcticChill> if I may add something
[22:20] <@Mike_> sure
[22:20] <ArcticChill> regarding the topic of sex and "closeness"
[22:21] <ArcticChill> I find it best to have relationships where the main focus is a sexual interaction with the partner. One thing that I often see people forgetting is that sex is giving to the other person the greatest gift you have yourself. This is also a gift that can never be taken back. Like Mike said, establish honest and open relationship allows for a much healthier relationship that start with a better foundation per-say
[22:22] <ArcticChill> main focus is not*
[22:22] <@Mike_> the important thing to remember is that sex is a VERY intimate act, but it is NOT (by far) the ONLY intimate act
[22:22] <@emmespalace> Binkahbin your question please
[22:22] <Binkahbin> what if all aspects of a relationship are great except for the fact that "I" don't want to have sex
[22:22] <@Mike_> this is a problem I sometimes see in my group therapy
[22:23] <@Mike_> good question, bink
[22:23] <@Mike_> when one partner has a dramatically different drive than the other, it often derives from problems with the third thing we are going to discuss, the self-esteem
[22:24] <@Mike_> there are other sources, of course, but this is by and large the most common
[22:24] <Binkahbin> at first I wanted to have it often, but that was when I tho't he wasn't going to be around forever but when he's actually stayed I'm not interested at all
[22:24] <@Mike_> other possibilities may include physical problems, relationship problems, or past traumas that inhibit one partner
[22:24] <Binkahbin> yes, I have ptsd as well and that seems to interfere a lot
[22:25] <@Mike_> then in that case, perhaps examine what the difference between those two things is. was it the 'thrill of the one night stand'? or is the fear of monotony? or something else altogether. 
[22:25] <@Mike_> only you can answer that one
[22:26] <Binkahbin> thank you 
[22:26] <@Mike_> I would seek some help working through my ptsd. Perhaps even include your partner, if you are comfortable with that. 
[22:26] <@Mike_> lets look at self-esteem
[22:26] <@Mike_> before we totally run out of time
[22:27] <@Mike_> this goal tends to underlie a lot of our interactions with others
[22:27] <@Mike_> it can help us to be more effective or completely paralyze us from doing anything effective
[22:28] <@Mike_> <trying to figure out where to go from here>
[22:28] <Mishie> self respect
[22:28] <Mishie> effectiveness
[22:28] <Mishie> was your next topic I believe
[22:28] <@Mike_> time constraints may be keeping me from doing as much as I'd like to here
[22:28] <@Mike_> all right lets do it this way
[22:29] <@Mike_> em has informed me that we can do a separate talk to continue this topic, so I don't feel as confined
[22:29] <@Mike_> that will help a lot
[22:29] <@emmespalace> what we will do so we don't leave anything out is we will schedule a second chat on this topic
[22:29] <@Mike_> I'm going to finish out this section, then, and take any other questions ya'll might have
[22:30] <@Mike_> I want to talk about beliefs briefly
[22:30] <@Mike_> beliefs are important because they tint how we view reality
[22:30] <@Mike_> earlier, Mishie asked a great question - that being "what IS reality?"
[22:31] <@Mike_> I want to dwell on that for a minute. What does reality mean to ya'll?
[22:31] <@emmespalace> to a point reality is what is in your mind how you see your world
[22:31] <@Rainbow_Chaser> yeah, reality is nothing without a mind to perceive it
[22:32] <@emmespalace> however your reality doesn't equal someone else's reality
[22:32] <@Mike_> debatable
[22:32] <Mishie> I think reality what's really going on around us, as opposed to what we want to think/believe/pretend is going on. how you think it is can be YOUR reality. but is it always necessarily the true reality?
[22:32] <@Mike_> debatable
[22:32] <@Mike_> mishie is a little closer
[22:32] <@Mike_> reality is simply what IS
[22:32] <@Rainbow_Chaser> factual
[22:33] <Mishie> I think it's really important to recognize when you're bending things or as my mom says "hearing what you WANT to hear not what's being said"
[22:33] <@Mike_> it's not what my PERCEPTION of it is, or what I think it SHOULD or OUGHT to be, but simply what is
[22:33] <@Mike_> exactly. The facts
[22:33] <caltex> what one person's reality is might not be another's
[22:33] <@Mike_> that's why I said debatable to your earlier comment, rainbow
[22:33] <girly82> reality is living in now not the past
[22:33] <@Mike_> just because I refuse to ACCEPT reality
[22:33] <@Mike_> doesn't mean it stops
[22:33] <@Rainbow_Chaser> how true
[22:34] <@Mike_> reality is ALWAYS there, whether we acknowledge it or not, whether we like it or not, whether we agree with it or not
[22:34] <@Mike_> it continues because it IS
[22:34] <ArcticChill> Reality is really an ambiguous word, perhaps "situation" or "circumstances"
[22:34] <@Mike_> not really....
[22:35] <@Mike_> reality simple means what IS
[22:35] <@Mike_> what is real
[22:35] <@Mike_> the world around us is real
[22:35] <@Mike_> things are really happening
[22:35] <dubie> the WTC is real
[22:35] <@Mike_> and it is our PERCEPTION of that which most often gets us into trouble
[22:35] <@Rainbow_Chaser> ?
[22:35] <@Mike_> let me give you an extreme example
[22:36] <@Mike_> lets say my phone rings right now and someone the other end tells me that my mother has just died in a car accident
[22:36] <@Mike_> what is reality?
[22:37] <@Rainbow_Chaser> your mom is dead........reality
[22:37] <dubie> mother is dead
[22:37] <ArcticChill> I disagree
[22:37] <@Mike_> what do you think, ac?
[22:37] <ArcticChill> because the reality IS, you are assuming that the person telling you this is correct
[22:37] <ArcticChill> The other reality
[22:37] <@Rainbow_Chaser> that is true
[22:37] <ArcticChill> could be you are agreeing with them
[22:37] <@Mike_> lets assume they are correct - not someone playing a prank on me
[22:37] <@emmespalace> the reality is you received a very disturbing phone call
[22:37] <@Mike_> good, am
[22:37] <@Mike_> em
[22:38] <@Mike_> yes
[22:38] <@Mike_> the reality is (in this case) that my mother has died
[22:38] <@Mike_> THAT is what is reality
[22:38] <@Rainbow_Chaser> but isn't that how your perceived it? That it was disturbing?
[22:38] <@Mike_> everything ELSE is what I attach
[22:38] <@Mike_> exactly
[22:38] <@Mike_> the disturbing part is a PERCEPTION
[22:38] <ArcticChill> I
[22:38] <@Mike_> the hurt, the pain, the torment I may go through
[22:39] <@Mike_> all perception
[22:39] <@Mike_> something added, by ME, not reality
[22:39] <@Rainbow_Chaser> yes........another person may feel differently about the same news
[22:39] <@Mike_> bingo
[22:39] <@Mike_> feelings may always be different for each person
[22:40] <ArcticChill> Perhaps Reality should be replace with life..."Life" is what you make of it, it doesn't stop despite what you want, and it's our perceptions that can sometimes get us into trouble?
[22:40] <@Mike_> and here's a foreshadowing of something from an upcoming talk - your feelings are never WRONG
[22:40] -Rainbow_Chaser- Amen to that one! :)
[22:41] <@Mike_> I would consider that arguing over semantics, ac, but if that helps you conceptualize it, then I'm cool with that
[22:41] <Mishie> they're feelings.. they can't be wrong.. they aren't fact.. they're emotion, emotion is only emotion... not fact.. or fiction
[22:42] <@Mike_> I'll get to that point I made when we deal with emotional regulation, but for now, jut take my word on it - if you feel nothing, or if you feel sad, or if you feel okay and happy at the news that your mother or your friend died - its OKAY. Your feelings are not wrong - they just are
[22:42] <@Mike_> dam mishie - you've done this before, haven't you? ;-)
[22:42] <@Mike_> I've strayed from my point
[22:42] <@Mike_> back to where I was headed
[22:43] <@Mike_> perception and beliefs
[22:43] <@Mike_> one of the things that KILLS our self-esteem is our beliefs. I'm going to get very concrete here and call this "what we tell ourselves"
[22:44] <@Mike_> what we tell ourselves about situations and our own ABILITIES in those situations can have a HUGE impact
[22:44] <Binkahbin> ?
[22:44] <@Mike_> for example
[22:44] <@Mike_> let me go back to the earlier objective example I gave
[22:44] <@Mike_> lets say I need a hamburger because I'm hungry
[22:44] <@Mike_> what are the steps I have to take to get a hamburger?
[22:45] <@Mike_> I have to go to Mickey D's
[22:45] <@Mike_> I have to order a cheeseburger
[22:45] <@emmespalace> or make your own
[22:45] <@Mike_> I have to exchange money for the burger
[22:46] <@Mike_> I cant cook, so I have to go to Mickey D's ;-)
[22:46] <@Mike_> those are roughly the steps I have to make to get a cheeseburger
[22:46] <@Mike_> but how about this
[22:47] <@Mike_> what if I'm too scared and I tell myself I can't go to the counter?
[22:47] <@Mike_> I am now standing in the corner of Mickey D's
[22:47] <@Mike_> muttering that I want a cheeseburger
[22:47] <@Mike_> what are the odds I'll get one?
[22:47] <@emmespalace> none
[22:47] <Binkahbin> slim to none
[22:47] <@Mike_> exactly
[22:47] <ArcticChill> depends on how badly you want that delicious burger
[22:48] <@Mike_> my objective effectiveness is very low because of my self-esteem
[22:48] <@Mike_> I'm telling myself I can't do it and I'm causing a self-fulfilling prophecy
[22:48] <@Mike_> lets look at another example
[22:49] <@Mike_> I need a ride home from group tonight
[22:49] <@Mike_> I want to ask em, but I already KNOW that she is going to say "NO"
[22:49] <@Mike_> my belief is, if she says 'no', it will kill me
[22:49] <@Mike_> will I ask for the ride home?
[22:50] <@emmespalace> aren't you projecting and didn't we talk about that in mindfulness skills
[22:50] <Binkahbin> no
[22:50] <@Mike_> exactly, on both counts
[22:50] <ArcticChill> No
[22:50] <@Mike_> my BELIEFS are holding me back
[22:50] <@Mike_> first of all, do I KNOW that em will say no?
[22:50] <@emmespalace> no you don't
[22:50] <@Mike_> (unless Madame Cleo is in the audience, the response here should be no)
[22:51] <@Mike_> and furthermore, if she DOES say no, will it kill me?
[22:51] <ArcticChill> I would hope not
[22:51] <@Mike_> the real question here is, has anyone said no to me in the past?
[22:51] <Binkahbin> it would embarrass me
[22:51] <@Mike_> bingo
[22:51] <@Mike_> it wouldn't be PLEASANT and I wouldn't ENJOY it
[22:51] <@Mike_> but I've done things I don't like before.
[22:52] <@Mike_> and I've lived through them
[22:52] <@Mike_> this is how we go about CHALLENGING those irrational beliefs we have
[22:52] <@Mike_> the first step is to identify the little buggers.
[22:52] <@Mike_> learn to tell what it is you are TELLING yourself
[22:53] <@Mike_> this is a mindfulness skill
[22:53] <@Mike_> being aware of what is inside
[22:53] <@Mike_> observe your own thought processes
[22:53] <@Mike_> what am I thinking right now?
[22:53] <@Mike_> what thoughts are going through my mind?
[22:53] <@Mike_> and most importantly, what am I telling myself?
[22:54] <@Mike_> once you identify what negative thoughts you are having, you can challenge them
[22:54] <@Mike_> NOONE is born with a positive mind.
[22:54] <@Mike_> or a negative one
[22:54] <@Mike_> these are things we ALL learn
[22:54] <@Mike_> and that means we can TRAIN ourselves to have positive thoughts
[22:55] <@Mike_> we ALL have negative thoughts pop into our head
[22:55] <@Mike_> I do
[22:55] <@Mike_> so does everyone I know
[22:55] <@Mike_> the question is, what do we do them and how do we cope?
[22:55] <@Mike_> answer: cheerleading
[22:55] <@Mike_> learn how to cheerlead yourself
[22:55] <@Mike_> this is an excellent cognitive skill
[22:56] <@Mike_> it requires first figuring out what those negative thoughts are, then finding the opposite
[22:56] <@Mike_> for example
[22:56] <@Mike_> one negative thought I have that pops up a lot is that I am not really very competent and that people will find out about me
[22:57] <@Mike_> the way I combat that thought is to challenge it - I tell myself that I AM worthy, that I AM highly competent and that I have helped many people in the past
[22:57] <@Mike_> tired of only negative thoughts popping into your head? try cheerleading statements
[22:58] <@Mike_> what I did for this one was to find 2 or 3 statements and write them on a post-it note
[22:58] <@Mike_> mine were: "I am a great person" and "I CAN do this"
[22:58] <@Mike_> I wrote them on a post-it and put in on the bathroom mirror
[22:59] <caltex> ?
[22:59] <@Mike_> EVERY morning and every time I went into the bathroom, I saw that post-it and said those cheerleading statements OUT LOUD
[22:59] <@Mike_> the out loud part is important - spoken words have power
[23:00] <@Mike_> I no longer have that post-it on my mirror
[23:00] <@Mike_> but I did that for a little over 3 months
[23:00] <@Mike_> guess what happens now?
[23:00] <@Mike_> when I'm showering, I get this thought popping into my head
[23:00] <@Mike_> "I am a great person"
[23:01] <@Mike_> I think I shall have to close and take questions now
[23:01] <@emmespalace> ok Bink your question please
[23:02] <@emmespalace> Caltex your question please
[23:02] <caltex> I struggle with the very example you gave about not being very competent - what if you challenge that belief and keep telling yourself that you are competent but in actual fact you are not? If you go on believing you are competent and then flop - doesn't that then backfire on you and destroy the self-esteem you just built up?
[23:03] <@Mike_> Wow, lot of questions there. Let me try to work though them
[23:04] <@Mike_> competence can be a tricky thing. Confidence is pretty universal, but I think I see what you're saying.
[23:04] <@Mike_> for example, I am not COMPETENT to practice medicine
[23:05] <@Mike_> I may try, but I have not had the schooling and no matter how much I TELL myself I am, I will not BE competent to practice medicine
[23:05] <@Mike_> is this similar to what you're saying?
[23:05] <caltex> yes, something like that - but not to the extent of practicing medicine!!
[23:05] <@Mike_> I try to use extremes :-)
[23:05] <caltex> I can see that
[23:05] <@Mike_> it depends on what it is
[23:05] <caltex> but that works well
[23:05] <@Mike_> in AA, they have a saying: fake it till you make it
[23:06] <dubie> practice until you believe
[23:06] <@Mike_> for many of us, competence means building up an experience base until your are able to do it well
[23:06] <@Mike_> do any of you believe I was BORN a competent psychotherapist?
[23:06] <@Mike_> of course not
[23:07] <@Mike_> it took time and training and a LOT of practice
[23:07] <caltex> so there has to be practice plus the belief
[23:07] <@Mike_> I believe so, yes
[23:07] <@Mike_> to the second part
[23:07] <@Mike_> what if I tell myself I am competent and fail
[23:08] <ArcticChill> Re-asses, evaluate, learn and move on
[23:08] <@Mike_> do competent people fail?
[23:08] <ArcticChill> yes
[23:08] <@Mike_> really?
[23:08] <ArcticChill> Sure, everyone makes mistakes
[23:08] <@Mike_> exactly
[23:08] <@Mike_> even the MOST competent people
[23:08] <caltex> I suppose it is tied into that perfectionist ideal
[23:08] <@Mike_> when I stop making mistakes, its time for me to move on
[23:09] <@Mike_> bingo
[23:09] <@emmespalace> girly82 your question please
[23:09] <@Mike_> when I have in my belief system that I CAN no longer makes mistakes because I am too perfect (or too competent), I need to get out
[23:09] <@Mike_> mistakes are what allow me to learn to become a better therapist
[23:09] <caltex> ok, thank you - you have clarified those questions for me
[23:10] <@Mike_> without them, I would become stagnant and boring :-)
[23:10] <@Mike_> next
[23:10] <@Mike_> (hope that answered it, cal)
[23:10] <girly82> you said about the cheerleading....well what if somebody tells you everyday you are beautiful and that they love you, you hear the spoken words but it don't sink in ....is it because you yourself isn't saying it?
[23:10] <caltex> yes it did, thanks
[23:10] <@Mike_> sort of, yes
[23:11] <@Mike_> I believe we covered this a little when we did mindfulness
[23:11] <@Mike_> <shameless plug>
[23:11] <@Mike_> I encourage all of you to go back and review that chat
[23:11] <@Mike_> anyway
[23:11] <@Mike_> can you take a compliment?
[23:12] <@Mike_> what are you telling yourself when he tells you "I love you"?
[23:12] <girly82> no I have problems with it and I think it goes with the self esteem issue
[23:12] <girly82> I don't feel it I hear the words no feeling
[23:12] <@Mike_> what are the 'problems'? What do you say to yourself when you hear that?
[23:13] <girly82> I don't tell myself anything its like I hear it and it goes out the other ear
[23:13] <girly82> but actually now I think about it self consciously I think he's just saying that he really doesn't 
[23:14] <@Mike_> I doubt this very much. You may believe you don't tell yourself anything because you've never taken a look at it. Next time this happens, try to remove yourself from yourself and just OBSERVE what thoughts are going through your mind
[23:14] <@Mike_> what you are saying to yourself
[23:14] <@Mike_> THERE we go
[23:14] <@Mike_> so when he says, "I love you", what you are saying to yourself is "no, you don't"
[23:14] <girly82> yes!
[23:15] <@Mike_> what makes it hard to believe him?
[23:15] <@Mike_> are you so flawed and imperfect that no one could love you?
[23:15] <girly82> my insecurities with my own self with my personality
[23:16] <@Mike_> again, I will get back to core mindfulness. One of the skills is learning to trust, not judge
[23:16] <@Mike_> you are judging yourself, as well as him, and therefore not able to trust that what he tells you is the truth
[23:16] <@Mike_> after all, how could anyone love someone so fundamentally screwed up?
[23:16] <girly82> exactly you hit it
[23:17] <@Mike_> once you can eliminate THAT thought from your mind, or at least combat it, you will be MUCH closer to being able to understand how and why he loves you
[23:17] <@Mike_> did that help?
[23:17] <girly82> yes it did thank you so much :)
[23:17] <@emmespalace> does anyone else has a question for Mike?
[23:18] <@Mike_> you're very welcome
[23:18] <@emmespalace> Mike to you have any closing statements you would like to make?
[23:18] <@Mike_> no other questions?
[23:19] <ArcticChill> Yeah I would like to testify that I could relate to the "Self-Filling prophecy." That really sucked and I would never do it again.
[23:19] <ArcticChill> my 2 cents
[23:19] <@Mike_> :-)
[23:19] <@Mike_> well, I hope this was enlightening
[23:20] <@Mike_> I look forward to finishing this section of the skills
[23:20] <caltex> yes, once again it was and I look forward to the next one
[23:20] <ArcticChill> Very insightful thank you Mike.
[23:20] <dubie> yes it is and thank you
[23:20] <caltex> thank you
[23:20] <@Mike_> I'll work with em to solidify a date in the (hopefully) not too distant future
[23:20] <@Mike_> you are all very welcome
[23:21] <ArcticChill> everyone has a good night, and pleasant dreams. :)
[23:21] <@emmespalace> I just want everyone to know that we will continue this chat on interpersonal effectiveness like Mike said and you can keep informed by signing up for the free newsletter at www.mental-health-today.com
[23:21] <@emmespalace> also I'll get this log edited and posted this week
[23:21] <@emmespalace> it will be posted to the main websites homepage
[23:22] <@emmespalace> once again Mike you did a fantastic job, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME AND ENERGY
[23:22] <@Mike_> well, I appreciate the opportunity
[23:22] <caltex> thanks again from down under
[23:22] <@Mike_> I've greatly enjoyed these chats and I hope they help people
[23:22] <@emmespalace> good day caltex
[23:22] <@Mike_> *doffs hat*
[23:22] <caltex> bye bye
[23:23] <@emmespalace> I know they help me mike!
[23:23] <dubie> me2
[23:23] <girly82> me3
[23:23] <@Mike_> :-)
[23:23] <@Mike_> *blushes*
[23:24] <@Mike_> thanks, ya'll. And I think we can work something out, em